Thursday, February 25, 2010

I've Got a Bad Feeling About This . . .

Throughout the Odyssey we encounter omens and prophesies. For example, Penelope dreams about twenty geese killed by an eagle (as reported in Book 19) and Theoclymenus has a vision (in Book 20) that all the suitors will be dead. Are these omens or prophesies proof that the characters' actions are predestined? Or are these merely predictions, given what we know about the characters? Why are they important?

5 comments:

  1. I am addressing the question of whether the prophecies and omens are predestined or just predictions. I feel that both the prophecies and omens are predestined by the Gods. This is a way to show the belief of fate in Greek culture. We know that, for the most part, everyone in Greece at the time believed in what is now called Greek Mythology. In this religion, we constantly see that the will of the Gods determines what happens to the Humans. This is called fate, and the Gods often have plans for how things are going to happen for the Humans. In the eyes of the Greeks, omens were the Gods’ ways of telling the Humans what their plans were. The Gods never liked to change those plans. For example, Odysseus says of Zeus, “Zeus was still obsessed with plans to destroy my entire fleet and loyal crew of comrades” (9. 618-619). Just before this passage it is mentioned that Odysseus was trying to use his own free will to burn offerings for Zeus so that he might allow him to go home safely. This did not work because Zeus had a plan and he was going to follow it though no matter who burned offerings to him. This is an example of fate and how Gods make plans that must be fulfilled. That backs up what I said about how Greek culture believes in fate and the will of the Gods. So, when somebody sees an omen or tells a prophecy, I know that this is just the predetermined will of the Gods because of the very strong belief of the Greeks in the fate of their lives.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I agree with Andrew. I believe that these prophecies, at least in this story, are true prophecies that are often taken as mere predictions. For example, when Theoclymenus prophesized the “disaster closing on you all,” (422.411) the suitors hardly take note of it and go on with their heckling of Telemachus. However, there are also examples when the belief in fate and prophecy is shown to be believed and feared by the humans. One main example is when Telemachus asks Athena in the beginning of the book if his father will make it home alive, and she responds with something along the lines of, “I cannot reveal what is to happen in the future,” which shows that Telemachus believes that his father’s fate could be that he will return home safely. However, in some cases the humans give sacrifices and other such items to worship the gods, in order that they get home safely and alive. But in some examples, like that of Agamemnon, he was not pious enough so his wife and her lover killed him. Even though this could be taken as “fate does not play any role in this”, no matter what, if they believed in fate ruled by the gods, no matter what that would have happened. And for the sake of an argument one might say, “Well if Agamemnon had just been more pious and careful he would have made it into his home safely,” but if that were the case, it would just be a completely different fate. So furthermore, in the Odyssey, everything is controlled by fate (AKA the GODS) and humans in the epic do not always understand that.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I would like to begin by saying what I believe Andrew and Sam are each trying say. Both claim that these things are predestined by the gods and Sam even goes as far as to suggest that humans are simply running the rat race of the gods (those are my words, not his). Agree with Andrew and Sam. These prophecies show that people in the Odyssey do not have nearly the amount of free will that they, would like to believe. Recall one of the first quotes from the Odyssey that we discussed in class. “Ah how shameless–the way these mortals blame the gods/ From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes,/ but they themselves, with their own reckless ways,/ compound their pains beyond their proper share.” In the past we used this passage to spark a debate about “whose fault is it anyway?”, but now I believe it is quite clear that omens, prophecies, and fate in general play at least some role in Greek society, at the very least in the way it is portrayed here in the Odyssey. However, I believe we can now use it for something else. I believe that Homer was attempting to identify through Zeus, a powerful and authoritative figure another key concept of the book: that despite the evidence on both sides of the “whose fault is it anyway?” debate, the truth is that it is a combination of the two. The gods have a general outline of what they want to have happen but humans can nudge things in one way or another. And in some cases, such this slaughter by Odysseus, the gods choose exactly what they wish to have happen and refuse to be nudged in one way or another.

    ReplyDelete
  4. The Omens in the Odyssey almost always come true. So far they have all come true, but since we have not finished the book we don’t know how the death of the suitors is going to come about. Odysseus told one of the suitors to flee and never come back because “Odysseus was going to return”. Odysseus felt that he was the only good suitor and one that his wife kind of liked so he was trying to spare him. But the suitor didn’t listen and odds are he will be killed according to the prophecies. But we really don’t know much about the characters predicting the omens. Odds are they are all true but really what makes the humans believe that what they see in their dreams what some guy tells them are even true. People now, don’t look at their dream and think they are going to come true. Say I had a dream that our neighbor’s house was going to catch on fire in the near future. Do I take that to heart or to I just pass it off as a weird dream or a nightmare. I would do the latter. But as you see in the book, when Penelope had a dream of an eagle killing all of these geese, she interpreted it in some weird fashion and she feels it is the gods talking to her. Though I feel the omens are what keeps this book going in a sense and what keeps the Greek culture afloat I just don’t think they really make sense if you believe in it. The context of the omens itself really matter. So if a god were to come down and tell you an omen, them of course people should listen to it, but if you have a dream, why would you listen to it. So each dream they have do they interpret it into some deathly omen? No, of course not, but why with this specific dream, did Penelope freak out?

    ReplyDelete
  5. Referencing Kate’s comparison between the modern day interpretations of a dream and how they interpreted dreams in the Odyssey, I think it is unfair to look at the two entities with the same perspective. In the Odyssey, there are Cyclopes and monsters with six heads and lifeless spirits and I am fairly certain you would not find any of these creatures today. Likewise, the prophecies, omens, and dreams in the Odyssey represent the culture and values of early Greek society as it is based off of the belief in Greek mythology.
    That being said, I would like to offer my opinion on the idea of prophecies and omens in the Odyssey. Throughout the Odyssey we can see that prophecies and the human’s interpretations of the omens sent by the gods always seem to truthfully predict the future outcome. One might conclude from this that fate, or the unwavering plan of the gods, always undermines the free will of humans to change the outcome. I disagree with this as I think that prophecies are merely readings of the future, or correct predictions (even though that is sort of an oxymoron), that fully take into account the actions of both gods and humans. The gods, no doubt, have the power to influence the world of the humans beyond the power of the humans, but they do not necessarily control all that occurs. For example, take Athena’s transformation of Odysseus into a rugged beggar. Though this disguise thoroughly fooled most of the people in his home, it fails to fool the old nurse Eurycleia. If fate was solely determined by Athena in this situation, then Eurycleia would never have found out Odysseus’ disguise. Clearly though, Eurycleia was fated to discover the disguise through her own free will despite Athena’s efforts to conceal him. The reason why the prophecies always seem to coincide with the will or plan of the gods is partially because the actions and responses of humans are highly predictable. For example, when the seer Theoclymenus prophesizes to the suitors, he states, “Poor men, what terror is this that overwhelms you so? . . . /cries of mourning are bursting from the fire –cheeks rivering tears-/ the walls and the handsome crossbeams dripping dank with blood!” Though Theoclymenus accurately predicts the doom of the suitors, the suitors take no heed and continue their reckless ways. This was the predicted response from the suitors which did nothing but contribute to their own fated destruction. Had the future known that the suitors would take heed of the warning and prepare and arm themselves, the prophecy would never have come in the first place.

    ReplyDelete